Ммммм, хотела отреагировать резко, но сделаю иначе - а что хорошего в этом "правиле"?

Пухоспинка
не надо резко, я ранимое, трепетное создание

Хорошее... мнэээ... щас попробую... Я не люблю, когда в Гарри, Снейпе или еще ком-нибудь (самое ужасное конечно - в Гермионе) просвечивает какой-то совсем незнакомый мне, но отлично известный автору персонаж. Мне просто неинтересно читать про автора в гп-шной шкуре. Пусть тогда идет и пишет про этого самого автора. В его собственной шкуре. При этом если это интепретация тех же Г., С. и Г., живущая своей отдельной от ГП-мира жизнью - это интересно (вдруг проступает чей-то лик, и обретает плоть и страсть и тэдэ, да? Только этот лик не может быть авторским, потому что тогда уж больно уши торчат, и обычно к тому же авторское сочувствие на такой образ льется просто рекой). Вот как-то так

I think self-insertion is unavoidable to some extent. Those of us who have a fetish for "taming" the dark, dangerous parts of Harry, write a Snarry with an angsty Snape, or a Drarry with an angsty Draco, and wait for the Dark!Harry to fall in love with us, erm, that is fall in love with the suffering hero and everything to be all right. Those of us who want injured Snape to have his vengeance, write fics with Dom!Snape, sub!Hermione; or Dom!Snape, sub!Harry - and write until Snape exhausts himself in his rage and becomes fluffy. Those of us who have a fetish for comforting Snape after the 7th book, write a Snarry, or a Snermione, or Snape/OFC, in the process, hurt Snape to the point where book 7 starts looking like a walk in the park (Really, you thought Nagini's bite was bad, Snape? Well, we'll show you, we'll... um... slave you, and Mpregnate you, and turn you into some weird magical creature, and give you cancer, too), and then, in the face of Harry/Hermione/OFC, we start comforting him, "there there, Sev, just relax, have some beer, have a joint, we can fix everything..."

And so on...

There's a legitimate space in fanfiction for self-insertion, an OC that reflects the author. And it's fine if the OC is in love with a HP character, too... just as long as the OC doesn't turn into Mary Sue. Which he/she usually does.... (actually so far I've read only one fanfic where Snape was paird up with OC who wasn't a Mary Sue..- Mood Music/Sons of Prophecy... the OC is clearly a self-insertion because the author is a total snape freak - I mean it lovingly - but hey, it worked out. Her fetish is for comforting Snape, so it worked really well. :P )

emilywaters1976

Look at this:
lraneluka.diary.ru/p80445377.htm
says it all about self-insertion
I dunno, maybe it's just that I'm feeling unwell, but all this talk about kinks and squicks is really getting to me. I mean, I admit there are kinks and squicks but I really, really wanna hope that this is not what fanfiction is all about. Well, not exclusively.

I sorta remember this discussion (or very similar to it) from somewhere else. Criticism here is very interesting, and it's interesting that the reader perceives the author to be doing a self-insert in the form of Harry. In that sense, any and ALL hurt/comfort with Harry (or anyone) comforting Snape is probably an author's self-insertion,because we all want to pet Snape.

they say that God has created a cat so that humans could have the pleasure of petting the tiger. Maybe that's why we created fanfiction - so we could have the pleasure of coddling and petting the fluffy, domesticated Snape - but even so, there are blatant, nasty self-insertions; and some that are a clear masterpiece - Лучше поздно is a h/c masterpiece just in the way that 99% of hurt/comfort Snarrys aren't.

я ранимое, трепетное создание

не верю

/жалобно/
А что такое self-insertion?

emilywaters1976
не верю
Oh yes I am. And I'll hurt grievously anyone who will doubt that

As for self-insertion... I really can't say much, 'cause I'm not a fic-writer

As a fic-reader though... With rare exceptions, such as Лучше поздно, I am actually more interested in fics where I can associate myself with Snape. Erm, not because he's getting abused, raped, beaten, humiliated and such. These are not my kinks.

Although I'm sure I'll get my own dose of analyzing later on where I'll be diagnosed with a severe form of masochism, I actually enjoy something a mite subtler - such as, say, endless guilt trips he embarks on, especially when they do lead to catharsis in one form or another.

My point (if there ever was one) is that such kink-oriented sort of criticism is a bit one-dimensional, in my opinion.

Пухоспинка
self-insertion - ето мэрисьюизм

Self-insertion is a literary device in which an author appears as a character within his/her fiction, either overtly or in disguise. а как по-русски не знаю....

strega verde

emilywaters1976
А я уже поняла как по-русски

self-insertion - ето мэрисьюизм

ниправда!!!

мэрисьюизм - is just a form of self-insertion badly done. When the author wants to insert himself /herself into the story, but in an unrealistic, "look at me and admire me - I'm so perfect" way (see numerous HP fics with OFCs) - or in a "ah, I'm so imperfect but wonderous, undeserved, magical things just keep falling on me anyway" way (see Twilight), then a Mary Sue is born.

But when a self-insert is well-done, when the self-insert is flawed, imperfect, realistic, human - and doesn't run to grab the center-stage and push everyone else off of it - then it can add to the story.... : )

(не бей меня, ранимое существо.... )

emilywaters1976
не буду бить, потому чта ты права
self-insertion - литературный прием: автор вводит себя в ткань повествования в качестве одного из персонажей
Так лучше?

Кстати, нащот Twillight - I can't think of this as a Mary Sue: the heroine is just too annoyingly pathetic to be a mary sue

emilywaters1976
мэрисьюизм - is just a form of self-insertion badly done. When the author wants to insert himself /herself into the story, but in an unrealistic, "look at me and admire me - I'm so perfect" way (see numerous HP fics with OFCs) - or in a "ah, I'm so imperfect but wonderous, undeserved, magical things just keep falling on me anyway" way (see Twilight), then a Mary Sue is born.
But when a self-insert is well-done, when the self-insert is flawed, imperfect, realistic, human - and doesn't run to grab the center-stage and push everyone else off of it - then it can add to the story.... : )

Ага, понятно

strega verde
литературный прием: автор вводит себя в ткань повествования в качестве одного из персонажей Так лучше?
мечтаю такое написать.. да все как-то неловко... хотя один похожий недотекст у меня есть

Пухоспинка
отчего неловко? Эмили права: если оно хорошо сделано - то это интересно.

strega verde
Да я это сама понимаю. Но для меня это что-то вроде сеанса публичного обнажения.
Я слишком зажата в этом смысле.
Вот поработаю еще с психологом, будет получше, думаю.

Но для меня это что-то вроде сеанса публичного обнажения.

а расскажи умылом?

Пухоспинка
сеанса публичного обнажения.
ну надо же, а я думала - я фся такая застенчивая... В смысле - лично я, как чего ни напишу сама - усё про меня родимую выходит, и ничего, не стесняюсь
А может, это потому, что я своё с психологом уже отработала
успехов, кстати.

As a fic-reader though... With rare exceptions, such as Лучше поздно, I am actually more interested in fics where I can associate myself with Snape. Erm, not because he's getting abused, raped, beaten, humiliated and such. These are not my kinks.

Although I'm sure I'll get my own dose of analyzing later on where I'll be diagnosed with a severe form of masochism, I actually enjoy something a mite subtler - such as, say, endless guilt trips he embarks on, especially when they do lead to catharsis in one form or another.

Ооооо. Тонкий, фрейдовский мазохизм, тоже люблю. :-) (like Snape in Tira Nog's stories, hmm?)

I'm not sure who I most frequently identify with when I write fanfics... I guess I self-indentify with Snape - when he's angry, embittered, cynical, disillusioned - blah blah blah, but not much when he's all self-sacrificing and noble, and not at all when he's hurt and looking for comfort.

emilywaters1976
о сеансе публичного обнажения? щас напишу

strega verde
а я и не застенчивая нихрена
но, гы-гы

спасибо

emilywaters1976
like Snape in Tira Nog's stories, hmm?
No, not really. Off the top of my head, I can remember well two fics by Tira Nog, A Nick In Time and Whispers of Intent. That is not exactly the guilty!Snape I had in mind when I was writing about self-identification. I mean, Tira Nog's Snape just has tons of complexes, neuroses, traumatic experiences and such, but he is not particularly guilty. Actually I meant your Snape, both in Bonds of Affection and (especially) in Ashes. It's interesting that you didn't recognize him

I'm not sure who I most frequently identify with when I write fanfics...
See? See? That's why I think all this kink-oriented criticism is mostly a load of BS

Actually I meant your Snape, both in Bonds of Affection and (especially) in Ashes. It's interesting that you didn't recognize him

Oh yeah. *blushes*. I... um...honestly, I somehow forgot about the guilt-trips...!!! LOL. So thank you. :-)

See? See? That's why I think all this kink-oriented criticism is mostly a load of BS

it's a Freudian thing. everything is about sex. if you're disagreeing, you're repressing. :-)

emilywaters1976
wow. wow. Да уж, блин, "нам не дано предугадать, как слово наше отзовётся"... 'Cause yeah, for me that was one of the most interesting components - how he deals with this mixture of grief and guilt... So I just hope it doesn't annoy you when people read into your fics something you didn't mean to say in the first place

if you're disagreeing, you're repressing.
гыыыыыыыыыыыыы)))

So I just hope it doesn't annoy you when people read into your fics something you didn't mean to say in the first place

oh dear, nonono, now I remember, I totally WROTE him as feeling guilty and stuff (both in BA and AA) - I just somehow managed to forget about it at this point... I think because in both fics, he had liberated himself from the guilt (in BA, by realizing that he didn't do the horrible thing he thought he did, in AA - by allowing himself to become ANGRY at the injustice that Dumbledore had imposed on him, instead of simply eating it) - and then, because his guilt sort of was 'resolved' in my mind, I conveniently forgot all about it

emilywaters1976